Monday, March 11, 2013

The Downward Spiral of Depletion

Warning, this post contains many charts.

Edit: Thanks for the link Mabrick!

First:  Mabrick stated this in my last comments section:
You have extra R) and P1? The way I deal with extra R0 and P1 is to not have any. That may seem a bit arrogant, but hear me out. Robotics is a 2 extractor, 4xP1 and 2xP2 production chain - per planet. When you get to Elite command centers it will be easier to do, but you should aim for 2 extractors each pulling 288,000 m3 of R0 with 2xP1 facilities per R0 type and 2xP2 facilities to take their product. You then have to move one of the P2 products to another planet to make the Robotics. I move Mechanical Parts to my Lava worlds where I have on additional P3 facility in my setup. Precious Metals is typically the weakest producer across all the planets I've run and that's why I produce Robotics on the Lava worlds. All three Lava planets process 1/3 of my Robotics each. I use no silos and I try and keep a day's worth of R0 in each Landing Pad as a buffer. To keep this working as stated, I actively adjust my extractors to make sure I don't over produce, even if that means I remove heads and have grid left over. It's just easier that way to me. 
To answer, in short, I don't have Elite Command Centers.  The long version is my planets, even after removing the storage facilities I didn't need, cannot support the mixed production chain he is describing.  In part due to CPU/PG, in part due to low resource distribution.  I am curious to know what planets exist in HS that could support his approach based on resource density.  I'm sure they do, but trying to find the 5-6 planets needed (3 barren, 3 lava), in one system, and also near whatever else you happen to be doing in Eve, seems like chasing after Enigmas.  Below is an example of the resources on one of my planets.  You can argue about ECU placement, but even if I consolidate to one ECU with 10 heads, I end up at about the same production, and then can't afford the chain Mabrick is describing.
Second:  Extra P1s are looking to be saving grace of my setup.  I can sell those excess materials.  In my mind leaving them on the table is lost isk.  I'll have numbers to show this later.

Third:  I lied.  I used Mabrick's advice in a different way.  Precious Metals are killing me.  So I played around and realized I have PMs on my factory planet.  Down goes an ECU head, fed into my production line to bolster production a little bit.  Not glamorous, but it should add a little margin.  Unfortunately, I've hit a wall in that I can't keep even one Robotics line going at this point.  See the image below to see the link going off to the ECU, and the current supplies inside the launchpad on my factory planet that supplies the whole P2>P3 chain.
It's lonely in here...
You need 288,000 * 2 units on each R0 to keep one robotics line going.  At capped out Command Centers on my Planets, here is what I am getting, with ECUs set to provide coverage of the best hotspots on the planets:
I'm making up the difference on P2s and P1s that are overproducing the rate limiting R0 (Noble Metals > Precious Metals):
So here is where we stand today:
For the complainers, I know sales tax probably shouldn't be included in costs, but I haven't bothered fixing everything yet.  This is feeding into a nice overall graph that will come later, and I haven't fixed that part yet.  But regardless of the -336,198.31 isk in sales tax, we're still in the red.  Production is slowing down considerably. I went from over 100 units of robotics a day down to 54.

I'll try to come up with a way to increase R0s, but it may take a few days.  The next two days are busy real-life wise.


  1. I hate long links... grid robbers of the worst kind... I do the maths and I now the grid cost for an Extractor+Launchpad. Once my links exceed that cost I cut em and drop an Extractor+Launchpad at the sweet spot between the 2 ores I need until returns suck then I reposition to the next sweet spot. I extract and ship ores to the Launchpad at the factory site via the POCO.

    Now, pls understand I am used ONLY to Anoikis (W-space) planets and their PI availability and ore rates, which I understand are a damn site higher than Empire, Hi, Lo or even Null... so it may be an untenable comparison... so meh.

    1. I get what you are saying. The problem I see is moving all the infrastructure, in HS, will rapidly eat into profits. At about 1.5m isk to move the launchpad, ECUs, heads and facilities, against 5-8m profit a day, that's a tedious ROI scheme. To put this challenge in perspective, I spent about 1.5 hours mining in an old hulk today and netted over 10m isk, in the same system I'm running the PI.

  2. Understood and yes there is a cost, but I very rarely have to tear down/rebuild the Extractor+Launchad... only if I seriously deplete an ore at a given site... so very rarely. So the cost is minimal and easily covered in overhead... however, again this could be a factor of Anoikis planets as compared to Empire planets...

    Though, in truth, planets are planets and whether or not CONCORD is present, IE Hisec,Lowsec, Nullsec & Negsec would not in any way affect what kinds of and how much mineral wealth planets (formed EONs before CONCORD or even before mankind arose from the muck of Earth that was) would have... sheesh. =\

    1. Perhaps the level of resources indicates depletion from colonization? And the assumption is that population levels are HS> LS > NS > WH? Grasping at straws to explain what is basically a risk/reward based mechanic, but that's the best I can come up with.

  3. Huh... I kinda like the "people dun ate all the rocks" theory... as on a statistical level in a game world you could just use that as a justification... However, my joy in EvE is how it relates as a "realistic" virtual 'verse... and in that vein science has already shown that human beings would have a very very tough time actually using up all of the usable roids in just one system in hundreds if not thousands of years... much less the thousands of systems with millions (billions?) of roids/comets/etc. that EvE has... I mean the total physical mass of roids etc. in the RL 'verse is immeasurable but probably finite, (who really knows?)... but even if it IS finite, it's one DAMN BIG finite you know... and while we are a pretty interesting species IMHO... we aint a force of nature on that level... and I pray we never are, cause overall we aint very good housekeepers...

    However, I'll buy your "people dun ate all the rocks" theory for an ISK... it's as good as anything else I thought up... =]

    1. I was thinking more on the PI resources with that. But the belts thing is a simple economic kludge. Can you imagine the devaluation if the roid fields were "realistic"? And the server strain of tracking thousands or millions of entities per system? The most realistic virtual still life of space!